Transcript
Grace Ann Chua [00:05]: Everything eventually comes to an end. People decide to move on. Why is it important to craft a good experience when someone exits? Welcome to Crafting Communities, the podcast that helps you shape a better experience for your community. I’m your host and friend, Grace. For today’s episode on exits, I have with me a familiar voice on the podcast, Shaily, and Justin from Lutheran Community Care Services.
Grace Ann Chua [00:34]: Hi Justin. Hi Shaily. Welcome to today’s episode of Crafting Communities. Thank you so much for being here.
Shaily Gupta [00:40]: Thank you. Lovely to come back again.
Grace Ann Chua [00:42]: All right. So in today’s episode, we’re going to be talking about the topic of exits. To begin, maybe Justin, you can introduce yourself and share with us about LCCS.
Justin Mui [00:50]: Yeah. Hi everyone. I’m so happy to be part of this conversation today. LCCS, which stands for Lutheran Community Care Services, is a social service agency here in Singapore, and our tagline is ‘relationships matter’. So for that, our core work is breaking the hurt cycle, and we very much do that through repairing harm and restoring relationships, which is why we’re interested to be part of this conversation, because we feel it’s really important to drive for restorative movement here in Singapore and we’re all involved in workplaces. So, that’s a really good starting place to talk about how we can have a different conversation.
Grace Ann Chua [01:23]: Thank you, Justin. Why is considering someone’s exit important?
Justin Mui [01:27]: Well, I can think of a story that maybe will anchor us in an experience that we had at LCCS. And this is a colleague from the finance team, who gave us very sudden notice that she had to leave because she applied to be a radiographer. It surprised us because it was a really short notice. In fact, she was unable to even serve the notice period and she was asking if we could do special arrangements for her. On one hand, we were happy that she can move on to do what she really wants to do. On the other hand, we were actually also affected because she was involved in quite a major project. And that meant some difficulties for the people that she was leaving behind. In LCCS, we have this process called the peacemaking circle. And we invited her and other colleagues who were affected to talk about some of the negative feelings with regards to her sudden departure, but also to hear from her and hear her share her side of the story of what this new opportunity meant for her. I think that this is an example of facilitating an experience when this colleague was about to exit, and I’m thankful that she’s given me the permission to share this story with all of you.
Shaily Gupta [02:40]: That’s lovely. So, how did people receive this exit finally, especially the people who were affected with an overload of work with her exit?
Justin Mui [02:48]: Yeah, so she left with a lot of our blessings. In fact, she left on a good note, I think it could potentially be that she would leave on a bad note. But even after she left, because she was a student, so she had like holiday breaks and she offered to volunteer her time, during the holiday to help out with some of these loose ends that still needed to be tied up, and this was just on her own time. So, we had that resource. And I think that’s very much because of the experience that she had with us.
Shaily Gupta [03:19]: Very interesting. In fact, contrary to this, Justin and Grace, I have a story, which is just the opposite, which is another bad exit. I’m talking about one promoter-run company, where the chairman kind of saw his senior team as his co-founders or partners. So, he had that sense of very strong bonding and relationship with them. And at some point, in time, people may have their personal reasons for wanting to exit or to pursue something else in life. And irrespective of the reason, he would see this as a sense of betrayal, he would see this as a break in relationship. The minute you put in your papers, he would stop making eye contact, he would stop inviting you for strategy meetings, start isolating you during that notice period and even when the announcement of exit is not announced to the rest of the organization, the rest of the team would know that something is not going on right between him and the chairman of the company, because of his conduct with the person.
Shaily Gupta [04:24]: And another similar story that I have is that I joined as a CHRO for one of these firms and every time there were these people come to take the full and final check, I would see some heated conversation between my team and the exiting person. And it happened not once, twice, many times. So, I started getting curious, why is it that it leads so much of angst and bad conversation? Is it something that my team is not handling properly? And I got to know we used to have something called the ‘lock and key’. When your laptop was given to you, you may have joined 10 years back. You’ve never used that lock and key to kind of tie in your laptop on your table. But at the time of leaving, you’re supposed to submit that back, if not the $30 would be deducted. So, when they come to collect the final check, your final check is less by $30. And that is like, “How dare you? You didn’t tell me.” Either I would have kind of made more effort to find it or you know people are angry that you’re holding my money back.
Grace Ann Chua [05:24]: It’s like a small matter, but it’s such a big deal.
Shaily Gupta [05:26]: Such a big deal on an experience. And I was like really, how do we solve this? So, you know, you can have some very bad exits, depending on how we conduct ourselves and what the reasons are if our processes are not aligned.
Shaily Gupta [05:41]: And I remember if I’m not mistaken in McKinsey, there used to have something called ‘up and out’, which is that you have grown to a very senior level, there is nothing else left for you and there is a very harmonious exit process through which people would find jobs in other organizations as head of corporate affairs, head of strategy. And the good news about that was that they would retain McKinsey to do all the strategy projects for those. So, it was never a bad exit, it was ‘up and out’.
Justin Mui [06:11]: In fact, that kind of reminded me of an experience that we had, because one of our key staff who left us and joined the government agency, but when she went there, she did such a good job. And eventually, she brought us in on a project. So, we are really happy. You never know when the person that’s leaving your organization actually comes back as a resource.
Shaily Gupta [06:29]: Exactly.
Justin Mui [06:31]: And it’s really just good to invest in helping them to leave better.
Shaily Gupta [06:34]: Yeah, totally.
Grace Ann Chua [06:35]: I want to jump back to something you said earlier- the first story that you shared about this person who communicated that they were leaving the organization. Would you say he took it very personally?
Shaily Gupta [06:45]: Yeah. Especially where the team relationship is very strong, if I’ve been a leader where I have a strong ownership of my team, I just have that sense of ownership of my team. So, when anybody resigns, I feel that I’ve been betrayed, right? I did everything for you. I provided you career opportunities, I gave you exposure, I gave you good increments, I gave you a safe space, and then you just suddenly one day come and leave me. So, that sense of betrayal, and many times good leaders, it’s a very natural feeling that they go through, but over a period of time I’ve realized that exit is inevitable. So, can we just work on our emotions? Can we work as leaders?
Grace Ann Chua [07:32]: How would you help that person or someone who behaves in such a way or feels such a way to think differently?
Shaily Gupta [07:38]: I personally think as long as you can make the person feel that the relationship doesn’t stop, when they stop working with you. Relationship is something which continues in life within the organization or outside the organization. So, if you focus on that long-term relationship, then the hurt is far lesser and then you’re able to build ambassadors outside your organization. But if you think that the end of the relationship, then the hurt is way more. And usually exit processes or a lien or a separation, we see it as an end of the relationship. And that’s when the betrayal and the hurt is way more.
Justin Mui [08:17]: Yeah, well, I think that in that story, you can also reframe it to think that for the Chairman, the relationship with this person really matters. So, I think it’s all right to be able to own your negative emotions around someone who matters to you is moving on and you feel that sense of loss. And in fact, I will then encourage and say that if you have a different conversation, and if you are able to own that feeling and you are able to say that “you know It hurts, that you’re leaving because we have actually spent so many good years working together.”
Justin Mui [08:48]: A negative emotion doesn’t necessarily mean that it would end in negative outcome. In fact, if you create space for those conversations to take place, actually, the person who’s leaving gets a very different message. When I first heard Shaily’s story, I thought, if I was that person, I would feel, “Okay, so now that I’m no longer of use to you, then suddenly, you cut me off. Suddenly, I don’t matter to you.” But on the contrary, some of that conversation or the empathy can be brought forth, that you are responding in this way because of the relationship that we have. I think that creates a totally different experience.
Shaily Gupta [09:24]: Yeah. I like the fact that you said the acceptance of that emotion and probably verbalize it. But the manifestation of that emotion is very negative, unfortunately. It’s actually a genuine hurt than a care.
Justin Mui [09:38]: Yeah.
Grace Ann Chua [09:39]: And it would be meaningful to express it to the person that I care for you and it’s been great working with you and it sucks that you’re leaving”. But I mean, in the situation, the way that he chose to respond was just that, like, “I’m just going to ignore you and cut you off now”.
Shaily Gupta [09:50]: Exactly, exactly. So, I think owning it and communicating probably can be more restorative in this way. You would’ve manifested differently.
Justin Mui [09:50]: Yeah. And I mean, the workplace is a community and people will actually talk right, so I’m also just wondering the impact of not responding well, for the rest of the colleagues who are still in the organization; What are they going to think about the chairman? What are they going to think about, “Oh, you know, in future, if I’m the one leaving, is this what I’m going to get?”
Shaily Gupta [10:16]: Yeah.
Grace Ann Chua [10:16]: Then how do people leave in the future? Because that’s the perception of how if I eventually choose to leave the organization, how am I going to be treated?
Shaily Gupta [10:23]: That is exactly the case in this organization. Everybody kind of knew the resignations are not going to be taken kindly. And it was a known fact.
Grace Ann Chua [10:33]: So, no one left?
Shaily Gupta [10:34]: No, people did leave and all exits have been bad.
Grace Ann Chua [10:38]: Oh.
Shaily Gupta [10:39]: Yeah, it’s been a challenge.
Justin Mui [10:41]: Yeah. But I’m sure there’s a proactive way to deal with it. Shaily, you have thought through and you have a framework to share about the phases and how you can actually plan people’s exits.
Shaily Gupta [10:51]: During my career in corporate life, my advice to leaders used to be, there are actually four phases to exit. Phase One is basically you are considering to exit or you’re disengaged. There are very clear signs. But if we don’t pay attention to it, we may miss them out. You would see the person who’s regular to work, walking in late for the meetings, less participative. You can see these. If you are cued onto your team members, you can see some visible signs. This is the best time to have a conversation and understand what is going on, and what is bothering the individual. And if you can solve the problem, because that’s relatively more proactive. And the chances of retaining your good performers are very high; when you are in this zone.
Shaily Gupta [11:42]: The Phase Two is submission of resignation or plans for departure. So, I have finally given my resignation letter, because I’ve deliberated, I’ve thought through, I’ve consulted my mentors, my family, my friends, and looks like the situation is irreparable or I do not have those opportunities, what I’m looking for here, so I finally made up my mind. So, that’s the reason I’m resigning. It is good at this phase to kind of express how much you value the person, you would definitely want the person to stay back. And many times, we are shy of asking this question. But it’s good to ask, “What can I do to retain you?” Why are you worried to ask this question? Because somebody may say, “Well, I’m looking for a 50% jump.” Or somebody may say, “Oh, I’m looking for a promotion,” which I can’t provide for. So, I’m very scared of asking this question. But be it, table it. Just ask, “I would love to retain you. What can I do to retain you?” And even if you do not have an answer, which fulfills the person’s ambitions, then and there, is there a path that you can think through in the next three years, four years, and articulate that.
Grace Ann Chua [12:49]: I think one of the things that someone once said to me is that before you depart or before you put in your resignation letter, really consider are there no other options within the organization. So, that’s the point of view of someone who’s considering leaving, but I think as a recipient on that end, when someone is communicating to you their plans on departure, then you can also counter ask them, like, is there anything else I can do? Is there anything else within this organization that you’d like to try before you decide that you really want to go?
Shaily Gupta [13:13]: Yeah. We are very shy for some reason to state our feelings. It’s good to say that I would love to retain you. There’s nothing wrong in saying that. What can I do to retain you? You’re a valued member of my team and I would love to have you as a part of my team. What can I do? There’s absolutely nothing wrong in asking that.
Justin Mui [13:32]: Do you have people who change their mind when you ask this question? Have you come across?
Shaily Gupta [13:36]: I have, I’ve had a couple of times. Usually it has been very late, as I said, because as a good leader, you should have been sensitive to their aspirations, and should have provided for it proactively. But many times as a manager, there can be a genuine miss and there is no harm in acknowledging that miss and making a correction. So, I did have couple of situations where the person has stayed back when I made that correction.
Grace Ann Chua [14:01]: What’s the third phase?
Shaily Gupta [14:03]: The third phase is when the person is serving a notice period. And this is the most difficult phase because now the universe knows that you have resigned. [Laughter] You are in the process of handing over, so your team is anxious, who’s going to take over from you, whether the new person who’s going to come in is going to be as good or bad as you were. Your manager is not investing in you anymore. They’re a little worried that you may drop the ball because this is a notice period that you’re serving. You’re not accountable in these two months, right? Your stakeholders may or may not reach out to you with the same rigor to get things done. They start slowly disengaging.
Shaily Gupta [14:49]: So, these last two months usually become very painful for the person. Usually, my advice to the individual first is that for you, it is business as usual to the last day, till you shut the shop. You need to continue to conduct yourself with professionalism, respond to every email and every action as if you will continue to work here, or handhold it to the logical conclusion instead of saying, “Well, I don’t know, I’m not going to be here,” or ignore it.
Grace Ann Chua [15:16]: Do a good job of handing over.
Shaily Gupta [15:19]: Do a very good job of handing over, make a whole list of what you were handling. Who possibly can take over from you? Where are the files, which are the papers, where are the backup papers? Just prepare a good Excel sheet and do a good handover.
Grace Ann Chua [15:30]: And what is the manager’s role during the notice period?
Shaily Gupta [15:33]: For the managers, I feel that they should continue to hold a lot of transparency, respect the individual for the duration the person is here. Many a times, I’ve had a situation that I’m holding very important strategic meetings. And considering this person is not going to be part of the execution team, I may not want to involve the person in those strategic conversations. But I’m very transparent, I’ll walk up to the individual and say that, “It’s not that I mistrust you, you’re free to join this meeting. But having said that, since you’re not going to be part of the execution, I’m not sending you a formal invite. It’s optional for you to be part of this meeting.”
Shaily Gupta [16:05]: Instead of just leaving for him to sit on his desk and “Wait, why was I not called for this meeting? What’s happening in that room? Everybody is in, I’m not there. So, bring in as much transparency as possible. Have a conversation with the team that post departure who’s going to take over and how this transition would be smooth. Allow the team members to engage with the departing person. Many times the teams are very fearful that if I’m seen hanging around with this departing person, then it will not be seen well. Will it be seen as, “Oh, I’m also going to be exiting?”, or “Am I showing too much of my allegiance with the departing person?” No, it’s a personal relationship. Even if you’re seening together, having lunch together, or coffee together, it’s perfectly fine. You had a long relationship, which will even continue outside work. So, managers should create that safe space, where a team can feel free to hang around with this departing person, having lunches and coffee, and not pass on judgement on the situation.
Justin Mui [17:07]: I think that’s interesting. Sounds like you’re trying to suggest that the managers are role models. In other words, the way they engage the person who’s leaving the organization, they’re modeling the culture of the organization, they’re modeling that it is okay to engage, it is okay to be transparent, it is okay to be explicit. Let’s not leave anything to chance. Let’s not let anyone have any space to guess what’s happening. Because, well, I mean, I can see as a leader, I would be more fearful of colleagues guessing, because when it’s left up to your imagination to wonder what’s happening, that’s where sometimes things might get a little toxic.
Shaily Gupta [17:43]: Absolutely.
Justin Mui [17:44]: So, rather than that happening, why don’t you intentionally have conversations and create that space and say, “It’s alright to have these conversations and engagement, so that it’s not left to chance.”
Shaily Gupta [17:54]: Absolutely. See, even if anybody has to leave from the team, they can do it even after office hours. It’s nothing to do with that I don’t have to visibly be seen with the person having coffees and lunches. I could still connect on the phone and look for an opportunity with you and move on if I’m not happy here. So, by creating that toxic environment, or unsafe space, you’re not achieving anything. By creating the love and affection, chances are the person will stay back with you more than anything else.
Shaily Gupta [18:20]: Before we kind of close on this one, I just wanted to share the last phase, which is the post exit. And the post exit is, again, once it’s like a forgotten dream: “Oh, at some point in time you were part of my team. I don’t care for you anymore.” Is there an alumni forum that you can create? Where these people can come together? Can you invite them for your offsites once in a while, at least members who were valued, that we would love to have you back.
Grace Ann Chua [18:50]: Oh, my previous organization used to do that. We would always invite alumni who have left that organization to come back when we had our annual retreat, like the barbecue at the end, after all the work planning stuff. Yes, it’s actually quite a nice opportunity to reconnect with the colleagues who have moved on to different organizations just to catch up with them. And now that I myself have departed, and when I was invited back, it made me feel very appreciated.
Shaily Gupta [19:11]: Exactly, exactly. And I always say if you can’t retain a person as an employee, you can always retain them as your customer or as a collaborator. You never know.
Justin Mui [19:20]: And Grace, in your previous organization, you are a brand ambassador you just shared about them. You know, how it’s made a difference to you? So, I think that’s something that you can also think about.
Shaily Gupta [19:29]: Totally.
Grace Ann Chua [19:30]: Yeah, Justin, anything else that you think we should consider about the exit phase?
Justin Mui [19:35]: Yeah, I think just circling back to the story that I shared about my colleague who left all of a sudden, actually there was really a pain point, and even while Shaily were sharing about, the consideration phase, I think the pain point for me was that we totally missed out any consideration on her part. In fact, in preparation for this session, I called her and asked her if we could have her permission to share her story on this podcast, and she said yes. And I did ask her, I said, “So, can you tell me again what’s the reason that you didn’t give us any signals that you were going to leave?” Because she applied for the program, And she said that, “Well, I wasn’t sure whether I would get into the program. In fact, I was actually thinking that I would probably get rejected, because it’s a competitive program. And so, she didn’t want to tell us anything, until it’s confirmed. And when it was finally confirmed, she was told like, “Okay, so the program starts in three weeks, and that’s when you onboard this program.”
Justin Mui [20:28]: So, it was painful in that sense, right? Because we pride ourselves as an organization that focuses on relationships and yet we didn’t see the signs. And in fact, she didn’t give us any signs. So, I think that’s important to create a space where we can respect every person’s voice. In fact, she even heard my voice because I shared at a circle that this is really how I felt that, it felt a little bit bad that we were unable to even tell that she was going to leave. I even said along the lines that, “Is it even a trust issue?” She didn’t mention that she wanted to go, because actually, if she trusted us with that information, I’m pretty sure we would have been able to hold that space for her. She also shared her point of view, the rest of the colleagues shared their point of view. So, I think that what we really should consider is how do you give voice intentionally for everyone to weigh in on what has happened, because at the end of the day, relationships do matter.
Shaily Gupta [21:31]: Totally. So meaningful.
Grace Ann Chua [21:33]: Thanks, Justin and Shaily. That was such a great conversation.
Shaily Gupta [21:37]: Thank you.
Grace Ann Chua [21:38]: My final question is, what would be one reason that you would like to give our listeners on why they should start thinking about exit for members in their organizations right now?
Shaily Gupta [21:46]: I think the main, the big reason for me is to create ambassadorship, if not an employee, they can be your customers, they can be your collaborators. There is a value in long term relationship. Relationship doesn’t start or end when they work in your team. It’s a journey. It stays with you, wherever you are, and you need to nurture that.
Justin Mui [22:05]: Well, I would end with questions. I think if you’re a leader tuning in, and if you’re a manager, I would ask you what matters to you? And what stories do you hope to hear this person share about his or her experience with your organization? Because if that matters to you, and like what Shaily said about being a brand ambassador, then surely you would invest some thought into how you can design some experiences for people as they move on during the various phases that Shaily had shared just now.
Grace Ann Chua [22:38]: Great responses. Thank you very much.
Shaily Gupta [22:39]: Thank you.
Justin Mui [22:40]: Awesome. Thank you.
Grace Ann Chua [22:43]: But wait- this isn’t the end of this topic! There’s so much more to discuss. Stay tuned for the next episode where we talk about designing exit experiences that will turn outgoing members into your best advocates. Bye!
